It looks like my friend Tom was correct. Tom is a neighbour of mine (he owns several properties) who likes to practise his English. He's a good guy who likes to help people and is more sensitive than he lets on. But one thing about Tom is that he is rich, and like most rich Thais, he likes to let me know about it. He will often playfully invite me to invest in a Sweensens franchise or some new business venture with him, because he knows I can't afford it. He also likes to jibe me about political figures, especially ones he knows I dislike.
I recall one day when I visited him and he was talking on the phone as I entered. He was talking to the controversial son of a well known politician. When he finished the conversation he smiled and told me: "Don't worry, I didn't tell him what you said about him on your blog".
Tom is a sharp guy and often tells me about business news before it happens. A few months back he told me he was ordering several large sacks of rice (the most expensive brand of course) to his 'upcountry' home. I asked him why and he told me: "There will be a civil war in Thailand soon for sure, I want to be ready". At first I thought it was another one of his jokes but it wasn't, he was serious.
He isn't the only hi-so person to suggest this to me either.
Could things really get that bad? Even if war is a bit of a melodramatic prediction, what does the next ten or twenty years hold for Thailand?
It makes me nervous to think about it. If Sondhi and his mob are successful, Thailand will move backwards in democratic terms by having far more appointed roles in the Parliament. That may restore stability to the country but at what cost? It's almost unheard of for a country to move backwards democratically and forward academically, economically or in terms of social freedoms.
Of course, there is a strong chance that this will not happen and Samak will ride the storm and PPP will continue to form the government.But opponents of Thaksin and Samak will remain vigilant and continue to apply pressure. Many of these alleged opponents - such as Prem - are elderly and in the final chapter of their lives but will stability ensue when the next generation of Thailand's elite take their place? Thais don't talk about this much but - according to Tom - there could be more problems ahead and with our senior statesmen gone, who will provide the stability?
Thais seem unwilling or unable to discuss this. Why is this? Perhaps a clue lies in the sort of behaviour we see from many of the protesters on either side of the ongoing conflict. Each day, the Thai and international press are showing us adults - from young men to elderly women - behaving like thirteen year old boys. They want to look tough so they carry weapons they have no idea how to use, they would be unable to use anyway and even if they did know how to use them, they would be of little help against trained and armed police or soldiers. In reality, the long planks of wood, the sticks, baseball bats and knives are almost entirely to pose for pictures with. Yet while these people strut around looking for attention - and student groups want to get in on the act too, now (they want to miss class, let them!) - problems continue to mount.
I fear that if we ignore our worries or problems then things are doomed to repeat themselves in an endless cycle of tender democracy punctured by conflict and coups, only in future the could become even more damaging. I just hope that this we can solve these problems before they happen. If we don't, I fear my friend Tom's prediction could come true.
Showing posts with label general prem. Show all posts
Showing posts with label general prem. Show all posts
Sunday, September 7, 2008
Monday, August 4, 2008
The truth about Chamlong
I feel the need to reply to Fearless' recent blog "Class 7 are back again". I have noted that Fearless often uses claims or adjectives that I personally find to be shockingly unfair, in fact I am often surprised that they are not removed for fear of libel action.
However the last blog I felt to be so inaccurate as to be obscene. To that end I felt the need to make some responses, I realise the subject matter will appear dull to most but, in fact, the life of Chamlong Sriamung is anything but dull.
"It is not only weird but plain wrong that we still do not read in Thai history books what the role was of the killers of Class 7, led by the likes of Prem Tinsulonda, Kriangsak and Chamlong."
This implies that the men were old buddies. In fact Chamlong is notably younger than Prem and they did not serve together. Chamlong did not work with Prem until Prem was PM.
"They all had in common that they were just like the old bullies educated by foreigners. In this case the Americans employed them. They gathered intelligence (we all know what Americans mean with gathering intelligence in times of war or looming war) for the Americans in South Vietnam"
Again, Chamlong was not working with Prem at this time. Chamlong served in Laos and Vietnam. He was working for the Thai volunteer division in Vietnam, and Thailand were US allies just as S Korea and Australia were. The Thais were employed more for their knowledge of Jungle warfare than anything else though, and by his own account Chamlong was in an office most of the time .
I'm not aware that Prem even served in Vietnam.
"Chamlong, Prem and Krangsak did so with as most visible and know achievement the mass murder at Thammasat University at 6 October 1976. "
This is the reason I have been moved to write. The events of Thammasat were horrific - people were burned alive, raped and simply beaten to death while people looked on and smiled. To make flippant, unproven comments about such an event is shocking.
Chamlong did partake in right wing rallies before the events of Oct 6th. His military unit did take part in the coup after the event but there is no evidence to show that he or his men had any part in the violence itself. I am not aware of any source that links Prem with the violence either.
I believe that there is more to be learned about these terrible events but people should use evidence, not blind accusations, to make the case.
"Poor people after all will in general show leftist behaviour. Being robbed by the likes of Chamlong from their dignity they want a honest piece of the economic cake" If there is one thing Class 7 cannot stand is democracy and certainly not democracy influenced by the masses that smells like coming from the left side of the political spectrum. "
During his first run for governor of Bangkok, Chamlong received huge support from food stall owners who felt he had spoken up for them. Chamlong won two Bangkok elections by a considerable margin including votes from many of the working lass.
In his first run as governor, Chamlong would actually go out at night and use his salary to buy food for road sweepers and check they were in good health. He did this not once or twice but many times. He did this not in the eye of the media but in private.
"Make no mistake, the Class 7 alumni are killers, they have showed their disrespect for human life over and over again. Negotiating is not their strongest point. They were behind the mass murder in the 70's and in the 90's. If Chamlong and his friends do not get their way, they will deploy their thugs to get their way. "
Again I find this hard to take. It's one thing to express opinions but words like "killers" and "disrespect for human life over and over again" are not things that should be thrown around lightly simply because you disagree with someone. I think it reflects very poorly on the writer.
In the 90's Chamlong was leading a rally against a dictator who clearly was deeply unpopular. Fearless, how can you call Chamlong undemocratic and a hater of the poor and then blame him for leading a rally that clearly received widespread support against a dictator? You then blame him for the army opening fire on them?
"he blew up his Palang Darma party, after winning a stunning 318 seats in parliament in 1988"
Actually they won only fourteen seats.
"half of them were from his Chanti Asoke sect, unimaginable in any developed country) "
Only one of them was from Santi Asoke.
"he was spit out by the people when they learned about his role in the Thammasat massacre. "
Actually he had spoken publicly about '76 when he first ran for governor. By the time he was PDP leader that was an old issue. He retired from politics twice, both times due to internal issues within his party. I've never heard of him being 'spat out' or of '76 as being an issue in his retirement.
I also feel that if making strong accusations we should be careful with our facts.
Yes, the old elite - especially Prem - have a huge amount to answer for and
Chamlong Srimuang is far from perfect and I do not support the PAD in all doing right now but I do support the protest against amending the constitution.
When we consider that the typical politician - especially in Thailand - is someone whose main interests in life are money, money, more money and perhaps some power in the way, ask yourself who would you prefer? More of the same or a guy who sleeps on a straw mat, gives away the gifts and salary he gets to poor people and spends days on end meditating or running around checking the street sweepers are OK?
Give me the second choice every time.
However the last blog I felt to be so inaccurate as to be obscene. To that end I felt the need to make some responses, I realise the subject matter will appear dull to most but, in fact, the life of Chamlong Sriamung is anything but dull.
"It is not only weird but plain wrong that we still do not read in Thai history books what the role was of the killers of Class 7, led by the likes of Prem Tinsulonda, Kriangsak and Chamlong."
This implies that the men were old buddies. In fact Chamlong is notably younger than Prem and they did not serve together. Chamlong did not work with Prem until Prem was PM.
"They all had in common that they were just like the old bullies educated by foreigners. In this case the Americans employed them. They gathered intelligence (we all know what Americans mean with gathering intelligence in times of war or looming war) for the Americans in South Vietnam"
Again, Chamlong was not working with Prem at this time. Chamlong served in Laos and Vietnam. He was working for the Thai volunteer division in Vietnam, and Thailand were US allies just as S Korea and Australia were. The Thais were employed more for their knowledge of Jungle warfare than anything else though, and by his own account Chamlong was in an office most of the time .
I'm not aware that Prem even served in Vietnam.
"Chamlong, Prem and Krangsak did so with as most visible and know achievement the mass murder at Thammasat University at 6 October 1976. "
This is the reason I have been moved to write. The events of Thammasat were horrific - people were burned alive, raped and simply beaten to death while people looked on and smiled. To make flippant, unproven comments about such an event is shocking.
Chamlong did partake in right wing rallies before the events of Oct 6th. His military unit did take part in the coup after the event but there is no evidence to show that he or his men had any part in the violence itself. I am not aware of any source that links Prem with the violence either.
I believe that there is more to be learned about these terrible events but people should use evidence, not blind accusations, to make the case.
"Poor people after all will in general show leftist behaviour. Being robbed by the likes of Chamlong from their dignity they want a honest piece of the economic cake" If there is one thing Class 7 cannot stand is democracy and certainly not democracy influenced by the masses that smells like coming from the left side of the political spectrum. "
During his first run for governor of Bangkok, Chamlong received huge support from food stall owners who felt he had spoken up for them. Chamlong won two Bangkok elections by a considerable margin including votes from many of the working lass.
In his first run as governor, Chamlong would actually go out at night and use his salary to buy food for road sweepers and check they were in good health. He did this not once or twice but many times. He did this not in the eye of the media but in private.
"Make no mistake, the Class 7 alumni are killers, they have showed their disrespect for human life over and over again. Negotiating is not their strongest point. They were behind the mass murder in the 70's and in the 90's. If Chamlong and his friends do not get their way, they will deploy their thugs to get their way. "
Again I find this hard to take. It's one thing to express opinions but words like "killers" and "disrespect for human life over and over again" are not things that should be thrown around lightly simply because you disagree with someone. I think it reflects very poorly on the writer.
In the 90's Chamlong was leading a rally against a dictator who clearly was deeply unpopular. Fearless, how can you call Chamlong undemocratic and a hater of the poor and then blame him for leading a rally that clearly received widespread support against a dictator? You then blame him for the army opening fire on them?
"he blew up his Palang Darma party, after winning a stunning 318 seats in parliament in 1988"
Actually they won only fourteen seats.
"half of them were from his Chanti Asoke sect, unimaginable in any developed country) "
Only one of them was from Santi Asoke.
"he was spit out by the people when they learned about his role in the Thammasat massacre. "
Actually he had spoken publicly about '76 when he first ran for governor. By the time he was PDP leader that was an old issue. He retired from politics twice, both times due to internal issues within his party. I've never heard of him being 'spat out' or of '76 as being an issue in his retirement.
I also feel that if making strong accusations we should be careful with our facts.
Yes, the old elite - especially Prem - have a huge amount to answer for and
Chamlong Srimuang is far from perfect and I do not support the PAD in all doing right now but I do support the protest against amending the constitution.
When we consider that the typical politician - especially in Thailand - is someone whose main interests in life are money, money, more money and perhaps some power in the way, ask yourself who would you prefer? More of the same or a guy who sleeps on a straw mat, gives away the gifts and salary he gets to poor people and spends days on end meditating or running around checking the street sweepers are OK?
Give me the second choice every time.
Thursday, April 10, 2008
More "national reconciliation"
First:
Then:
Potjaman Shinwatra visits Prem earlier this year.
Now:
Prem Tinsulanond on Thursday urged top military leaders to set example by upholding the royal advice on three principles - honesty, unity and foregiveness.........Prem's remarks on forgiveness coincided with the political tussle relating to constitutional changes.
"Personally, I want this issue to be settled soon. There are many other problems involving the country, particularly to prevent a return of evil,"
Vice Admiral Pajun Tamprateep, a close aide to Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda speaks in Oct 2007. (What is the root of all "evil" again?)
Vice Admiral Pajun Tamprateep, a close aide to Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda speaks in Oct 2007. (What is the root of all "evil" again?)
Then:
Potjaman Shinwatra visits Prem earlier this year.
Now:
Prem Tinsulanond on Thursday urged top military leaders to set example by upholding the royal advice on three principles - honesty, unity and foregiveness.........Prem's remarks on forgiveness coincided with the political tussle relating to constitutional changes.
The Nation reports today.
"No reconciliation, no honey"
Thai saying
Thai saying
"Show me the reconciliation"
Tom Cruise , in Jerry Maguire
"Reconciliation reconciliation reconciliation, it tastes like honey"
ABBA
ABBA
Thursday, February 28, 2008
Non news
Today's big news is Thaksin's return. The plane made a special stop outside the VIP lounge of the airport for the man who is charged with - and has strong evidence of - corruption.
The biggest non shock is that he was granted bail on both charges. Who would ever have thought?
Events in the past year have gone something like this.
1) Thaksin and Privy Council head Prem have a public war of words.
2) The coup.
3) Prem refers to Thaksin as "evil" or various other unflattering terms at every opportunity, mixed in with his usual nationalist rhetoric.
4) Thaksin says he wants to "make amends" with Prem.
5) Thaksin's wife returns home and gets bail.
6) Thaksin's wife consults a "respectable senior figure" over the formation of a new government (h/t Bangkok Pundit)
6) Thaksin returns home and gets bail.
Go figure.
Incidentally, do not be fooled by Surapong's request to Thaksin to be a "economical advisor". This is a ploy so that Thaksin can make a very public refusal and this will be held up as proof that he truly does not want to return to politics.
The biggest non shock is that he was granted bail on both charges. Who would ever have thought?
Events in the past year have gone something like this.
1) Thaksin and Privy Council head Prem have a public war of words.
2) The coup.
3) Prem refers to Thaksin as "evil" or various other unflattering terms at every opportunity, mixed in with his usual nationalist rhetoric.
4) Thaksin says he wants to "make amends" with Prem.
5) Thaksin's wife returns home and gets bail.
6) Thaksin's wife consults a "respectable senior figure" over the formation of a new government (h/t Bangkok Pundit)
6) Thaksin returns home and gets bail.
Go figure.
Incidentally, do not be fooled by Surapong's request to Thaksin to be a "economical advisor". This is a ploy so that Thaksin can make a very public refusal and this will be held up as proof that he truly does not want to return to politics.
Wednesday, January 23, 2008
The fallout
Potjamon Shinwat pleads not guilty and tells the court:
"The defence requests 90 days to gather evidence and await the readiness of the codefendant to jointly fight the charges, expected some time in May"
You could be forgiven for wondering why Potjamon didn't do that during her stalling of months and months when due to testify to the AEC, when these charges were first raised.
Potjamon also confirmed Thaksin will return in May and The Nation suggests Thaksin wants to become a monk.
This wouldn' t be the first time a controversial Thai PM/dictator returned as a monk. It also isn't the first time that politicians have suddenly become remarkably relaxed about corruption charges following requested "reconciliation" meetings with Prem. In the case in question, the former CNS chief also assures us that there were no meetings between himself and Potjamon. The press just made it up.
"The defence requests 90 days to gather evidence and await the readiness of the codefendant to jointly fight the charges, expected some time in May"
You could be forgiven for wondering why Potjamon didn't do that during her stalling of months and months when due to testify to the AEC, when these charges were first raised.
Potjamon also confirmed Thaksin will return in May and The Nation suggests Thaksin wants to become a monk.
This wouldn' t be the first time a controversial Thai PM/dictator returned as a monk. It also isn't the first time that politicians have suddenly become remarkably relaxed about corruption charges following requested "reconciliation" meetings with Prem. In the case in question, the former CNS chief also assures us that there were no meetings between himself and Potjamon. The press just made it up.
Monday, July 23, 2007
The anti-coup and anti-Prem protests
I'm back! A few days ago my blog was locked by 'spambots' who somehow decided my blog was spam!!!
********************
The shocking rumour
Towards the end of this week, an alarming and shocking piece of false news spread throughout my area via SMS. The topic was so sensitive that I don't want to detail it here.
About the same time, The Nation ran a headline that did not mention the rumour but gave clear information to show the rumour was false. I wonder if TN got wind of the gossip but didn't want to refer to it directly due to the sensitive subject matter.
Did anyone else here this rumour? If you have no idea what I'm talking about, please don't worry.
****************************
Photo from The Nation
"Pa Prem" is still widely admired and held in great affection by many Thais, to see violent demonstrations outside his residence is cause for alarm...... (This interview is a giveaway of Prem's aged outlook on the world)
On the surface, we see a group calling for one man to protest. Under the skin, we see a whole lot of power plays and various interests colliding, resulting in friction.
As discussed in my "Matroskya" blog, Thailand - like all nations - engages politics on several levels. Some visible to the public, some hidden and protected. A prevalent example of this is the protest and subsequent key members arrest of the DAAD (Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship).
The DAAD are ostensibly a group of civilians against the coup and the coup leaders. They bear a striking similarity in appearance (colours, headbands, etc) and behaviour to the PAD (People's Alliance for Democracy) a group that staged frequent street marches against Thaksin when he was PM and widely credited as being instrumental in his downfall.
The DAAD however, are on the other side of the spectrum. They have strong ties to various elements of the now dissolved TRT party. One of the main speakers of the DAAD is Chakrapob Penkair. His recent interview in The Nation was passionate and shockingly open. Chakrapob spoke undauntedly about who he held responsible for the coup, and suggested Prem "is destroying democracy."
But of course, General Prem is the privy councillor in a country that reveres its king. Prem is widely considered to be a highly trusted aide of His Majesty the King , some even consider the views aired by Prem to reflect those of the palace. It's a tenuous, sensitive issue that has caused charges of lese majeste in the past.
During the build up to the coup of last year, Prem publicly made several comments apparently aimed at Thaksin, who responded by suggesting a "charismatic figure outside the constitution" was conspiring against him.
So when - after the coup - the people's groups against the junta began protesting against General Prem and calling for him to reign his post, concerns were raised. The "mobs" have suggested that Prem engineered the coup and he must take responsibility.
It's hardly difficult to see the sensitivities of this issue. A group claiming that the octogenarian privy councillor engineered the coup alone is precarious. It sets a precedent for unrest between pro and anti Thaksin groups, aristocracy and working class, and tradition and progressive democracy.
So what will the long term effect be on the country? Certainly the junta face more pressure, the demonstrations are gaining in frequency and attention, despite the junta's best attempts to play the "They are small in number and paid for by Thaksin the devil" card. What's more, the junta are taking a gamble by charging the group leaders, it can be perceived as suppression of freedom by many and simply increase sympathy for the group
The junta have achieved little except to show they have no capacity or tolerance of protests, Prem is untouchable and they will deal with civilian protests not by arresting the few who cause violence, but by arresting the leaders such as the highly articulate Chakrapob to silence them.
My family has PAD connections. I am no fan of Thaksin, but as the military insult the intelligence of Thais by telling them every democracy group is "paid for by Thaksin", by dealing with every disturbance with intimidation, and by letting us know that Prem can behave as he likes without being held accountable, the tensions and disturbances can only increase.
********************
The shocking rumour
Towards the end of this week, an alarming and shocking piece of false news spread throughout my area via SMS. The topic was so sensitive that I don't want to detail it here.
About the same time, The Nation ran a headline that did not mention the rumour but gave clear information to show the rumour was false. I wonder if TN got wind of the gossip but didn't want to refer to it directly due to the sensitive subject matter.
Did anyone else here this rumour? If you have no idea what I'm talking about, please don't worry.
****************************
DAAD vs The Junta
Photo from The Nation"Pa Prem" is still widely admired and held in great affection by many Thais, to see violent demonstrations outside his residence is cause for alarm...... (This interview is a giveaway of Prem's aged outlook on the world)
On the surface, we see a group calling for one man to protest. Under the skin, we see a whole lot of power plays and various interests colliding, resulting in friction.
As discussed in my "Matroskya" blog, Thailand - like all nations - engages politics on several levels. Some visible to the public, some hidden and protected. A prevalent example of this is the protest and subsequent key members arrest of the DAAD (Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship).
The DAAD are ostensibly a group of civilians against the coup and the coup leaders. They bear a striking similarity in appearance (colours, headbands, etc) and behaviour to the PAD (People's Alliance for Democracy) a group that staged frequent street marches against Thaksin when he was PM and widely credited as being instrumental in his downfall.
The DAAD however, are on the other side of the spectrum. They have strong ties to various elements of the now dissolved TRT party. One of the main speakers of the DAAD is Chakrapob Penkair. His recent interview in The Nation was passionate and shockingly open. Chakrapob spoke undauntedly about who he held responsible for the coup, and suggested Prem "is destroying democracy."
But of course, General Prem is the privy councillor in a country that reveres its king. Prem is widely considered to be a highly trusted aide of His Majesty the King , some even consider the views aired by Prem to reflect those of the palace. It's a tenuous, sensitive issue that has caused charges of lese majeste in the past.
During the build up to the coup of last year, Prem publicly made several comments apparently aimed at Thaksin, who responded by suggesting a "charismatic figure outside the constitution" was conspiring against him.
So when - after the coup - the people's groups against the junta began protesting against General Prem and calling for him to reign his post, concerns were raised. The "mobs" have suggested that Prem engineered the coup and he must take responsibility.
It's hardly difficult to see the sensitivities of this issue. A group claiming that the octogenarian privy councillor engineered the coup alone is precarious. It sets a precedent for unrest between pro and anti Thaksin groups, aristocracy and working class, and tradition and progressive democracy.
A small portion of the demonstrators threw rocks and other objects, attacked vehicles and violently assaulted police. The face charges, as do the leaders of the group.
So what will the long term effect be on the country? Certainly the junta face more pressure, the demonstrations are gaining in frequency and attention, despite the junta's best attempts to play the "They are small in number and paid for by Thaksin the devil" card. What's more, the junta are taking a gamble by charging the group leaders, it can be perceived as suppression of freedom by many and simply increase sympathy for the group
Photo from The Nation Thailand
The junta have achieved little except to show they have no capacity or tolerance of protests, Prem is untouchable and they will deal with civilian protests not by arresting the few who cause violence, but by arresting the leaders such as the highly articulate Chakrapob to silence them.
My family has PAD connections. I am no fan of Thaksin, but as the military insult the intelligence of Thais by telling them every democracy group is "paid for by Thaksin", by dealing with every disturbance with intimidation, and by letting us know that Prem can behave as he likes without being held accountable, the tensions and disturbances can only increase.
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